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Hidrex PSP1000 - specific questions V / mA / body resistance

 
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:42 pm    Post subject: Hidrex PSP1000 - specific questions V / mA / body resistance Reply with quote

Hidrex PSP1000 - specific questions regarding the setup of Volt/mA and the relevance of the bodys resistance

Since it has come to frequent questions regarding the setup of the Hidrex with Volt or mA, the relevance of the bodys resistance in regards of how high the machine can go, etc, we have decided to make this extended post. We have collected the most frequent questions and misunderstandings and hope to give you a better understanding of how the Hidrex PSP1000 works.
Quick info link concerning on how to find the best Pulse width with the Hidrex PSP 1000
Although the Hidrex PSP1000 offers to display the current in mA or in V, we highly recommend to stick ONLY to the Volt setting. This one is much more accurate and reliable than the mA setting.

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The dose of treatment current(mA) cannot be displayed. Could you please advise which button to press in order to check the current output(mA) in both Pulse and DC mode?

In order to change the mA/Volt setting, you have to be in TREATMENT mode. The current shows on the right side of the display . If you push the buttons below, either plus or minus, you can change the current setting. During treatment, if you press this button repeatidly, the display changes between the mA value and the V value.

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How can I display the treatment current in mA?

To display the current in mA you will have to press this button during SETUP mode:
, until the LED light next to the following symbol
is on.
Then you have the current displayed in mA.
If you press the above button again, the LED light will turn off, this means, that the display will show the current in V.

Please note, that once you are in TREATMENT mode and want to set up the current value, this will only be possible in V, although you had chosen to display the current in mA.
So what happens is:
- you choose to display the current in mA
- you set up the value in V
- as soon as the current circuit closes, the current will show in mA again.
It is just possible to set the current value in V, not in mA.


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Is it possible to switch the display between mA and V during treatment?

Yes. It doesn't matter what you had chosen during SETUP mode.
If during TREATMENT mode you press
, then the display will switch from showing the current in mA, then V, then mA. You can always control what the display is showing currently, by checking if the LED light next to this symbol
is on or not.
If it is on, then it shows mA.
If it is off, then it shows V.

Like stated above, we highly recommend to stick with the V setting.

________________________
How to pre-set both the treatment current (mA) and the treatment voltage (V)?

There is no option to preset both, mA and V. You have only the option to adjust the current in V. Even if before, you had chosen to display the current in mA, you will only be able to set up the voltage.

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So, does it mean that it is NOT possible to set up BOTH current in mA AND voltage in V in the SETUP mode? Each time, it is only possible to setup either V or mA to be displayed?

No, during SETUP mode you can only choose how you want the current to be displayed: in mA or V.
Then in TREATMENT mode you can adjust the current only in V. After that, it switches again to mA.

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The maximum treatment voltage is 60V. Why cant the maximum treatment current be 60 mA? (into a 1KOhm load), why is it 35mA max?

The machine has a built-in protection system (current limitation), which will prevent the machine from delivering too much current. The maximum the machine will deliver @2kOhm is: 60V @ 30 mA. The current limitation is set to stop at a maximum of 30mA (there had to be a limitation on either Volt or mA, and the manufacturer just chose the mA). So this is why, at 1 kOhm, the maximum the machine will deliver is also 30V @ 30mA. If you have someone with 4kOhm, then the maximum the machine will deliver is 60V @ 15mA. So for example if you have 4 kOhm, the machine will stop at a maximum of 15mA. Maybe it will stop earlier. And if you have someone with 1kOhm the machine will only allow you to go as high as 30mA. This is why we always recommend to use the Volt setting, since the mA is always regulating itself, the Volt setting is much more precise and accurate.

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An example, if the load (body resistance) is 10kOhm, and the current is set up as 30V during the SETUP mode, then how does the machine work? Will the machine limit the voltage output or current output?

First, there is one thing we need to keep clear. There is a difference between the mA or V you can setup during TREATMENT mode and the mA or V which the machine will deliver during a session. During TREATMENT mode you always will be able to set the current to the maximum, means 60V. But this does not mean, that during the treatment, the machine is actually going to go as high as 60V. It depends on the bodys resistance, measured in kOhm. So for example, if during TREATMENT mode you set the machine to the maximum at 60V (because you only can set up the current in V), but you happen to have a body resistance of 4 kOhm, the current limitation will take place at approximately 15mA (we discussed earlier, that the current limitation is done with the mA). The thing is, since you have the current displayed in V, you will not notice that the machine turned on the current limitation on the mA. But if you switch the display from V to mA, you will see that the mA will not go higher than 15mA.

Look here:

kOhm
Max. Output
Ionto Factor
0,5
60 V @ 30 mA
1800
1
60 V @ 30 mA
1800
2
60 V @ 30 mA
1800
4
60 V @ 15 mA
900
8
60 V @ 7,5 mA
450
10
60 V @ 6 mA
360


(The iontophoresis factor is a term we use for explanation reasons only. It is not a scientific term. Basically it explains the maximum power the machine can deliver at specific body resistances, in one number. So you see, from a body resistance higher than 2 kOhm, the machines maximum output becomes less.)

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Regarding to the above table: (Note: the device's max current output is 30mA)

1. If the user only manully pre-sets the max voltage output as 40V, without preset on current output, then is the following table correct?


kOhm
Max. Output
Ionto Factor
0,5
40 V @ 30 mA
1200
1
40 V @ 30 mA
1200
2
40 V @ 20 mA
800
4
40 V @ 10 mA
400
8
40 V @ 5 mA
200
10
40 V @ 4 mA
160


2. If the user manully pre-sets the max voltage output as 40V, and the max current output as 20mA, then is the following table correct?

kOhm
Max. Output
Ionto Factor
0,5
40 V @ 20 mA
800
1
40 V @ 20 mA
800
2
40 V @ 20 mA
800
4
40 V @ 10 mA
400
8
40 V @ 5 mA
200
10
40 V @ 4 mA
160


The table above was only for explanation purposes, showing what the machine can maximally deliver when having a specific body resistance. The values may vary.

So the two tables listed here are theoretically correct, but in practice (reality) you can't just define the bodys resistance as exactly 1,0, for example. It can be 2,37 or 1,97 and then you will always get a different mA or V. The bodys resistance regulates either the mA or the V. So if you set up the machine in Volt, then the body resistance will regulate the mA. And if you set up the machine in mA, then the body resistance will regulate the V.
This is why the following isn't possible : (2) If the user manully pre-sets the max voltage output as 40V, and the max current output as 20mA, then is the following table correct? You can't manually preset the V and the mA! You can either preset the V or the mA.

________________________
An example:
(1) During Setup Mode, the user sets up a fixed mA, e.g. 20mA
(2) During Treatment Mode, the user sets up a fixed Volt, e.g. 50V
Thus, it looks like your Hidrex machine allows user to set up both in Volt and mA, right? If so, which parameter dominates? Volt or mA?


I think you misunderstood something here: It is not possible to setup mA and V!

1) during SETUP mode it is only possible to choose what you would like to see on the display: either mA or Volt. That is all. You can't choose the value or dosage.
2) during TREATMENT mode you can choose the value or dosage, but only of the V, then you can choose between 1V and 60V.

Here again:
SETUP mode: what --> either V or mA
TREATMENT mode: how much V

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For pulse P-90, the Voltage display is set up as "41", while the actual higher voltage output measured is "19.8V", and the lower voltage output is about "2V". What is the relationship between the panel setup and the actual output?

To be honest, I don't quite understand how you got the "higher voltage output" and the "lower voltage output". I assume that you are testing the machine with a device which simulates a resistance and measures the machines output? It is very important to know, that the body resistance is different from the resistance a device can simulate. So you will not get accurate values.
And it is very important to keep in mind, that never mind how high you set the V or the mA, the machine doesn't necessarily have to reach those settings. In your case, just because you set it up to 41V , doesn't mean that the machine will go up to 41V. She can stop earlier. This has many reasons, mainly because of the bodys resistance.

________________________
Most of the time, the "DIVE" is sensitive to detect that hands/feet have been placed in the tubs.
However, sometimes, it seems that the machine doesn't detect the hands/feet at all.
1. It happened that the "DIVE" LED is still lighted on when the load moved out of the water tank, and the voltage display doesn't decrease to Zero
2. When 1. happens, and when the load is added again, the "DIVE" LED remains to light on, and the voltage display doesn't increase from zero, and it remains the previous value.


Yes, sometimes the machine has a bit difficulties detecting that hands and feet have been placed in the tubs. To 1. and 2.: There has to be some kind of connection that keeps the current circuit closed. Else, it isn't possible that the DIVE LED is still on. Are the electrodes touching each other? Or, if you're actually testing with a device that simulates the resistance, maybe it is this. Have you tried with a person also? I am sure that if you try with a person, the DIVE LED will turn off, once the person removes hands or feet.

________________________
While, after unplugging all the red/black cable, I use a multimeter to measure the resistance value when both of my hands immerse into the water tank (with about 1.5cm high water level), the resistance value is about 200kOhm, is it in the reasonable range for the human resistance? Based on your experience, what is the reasonable range of human hand resistance? Please kindly advise, thank you.
Btw, it is also noticed that the hand resistance value is different when plugging on all the cable to machine. Which one is correct to measure with or without the cable connection to machine? And the measurement value is even different when the machine is on or off with cable connection. Which mode is the correct way to measure the human hand resistance?


Honestly I have to say, we have never used a multimeter to determine the resistance. In my opinion it isn't important, since the bodys resistance is as high or low as it is. The machine will work according to the bodys resistance. I understand that it might be just interesting to know how high the resistance is, but I think it is not relevant, as long as the machine works and the person who is treating has a good success with it. So basically, to perform the therapy it is not important to know the bodys resistance, since the machine automatically adapts itself to it.

________________________
The following are two questions from a hospital staff in China which bought an Hidrex PSP1000:
1. Our norminal safety voltage for human beings is 36V, while Hidrex's max treatment voltage is 60V, is this safe for patients?
2. Our norminal safety current for human beings is 10mA, while Hidrex's max treatment current is 30~35mA, is this safe for patients?
3. If both are safe, then why do the China hospitals regulations ask to indicate the voltage to be less than 36V, and the current to be less than 10mA? Are there any international standards for this kind of machine or device?


1. and 2. Yes, it is both safe for patients. Else it wouldn't be possible to sell the machines. If wanted, we can provide you with all necessary safety certificates.
But either way you have to always look out for the counterindications as stated in the manual.
3. In the end, medical products don't have a limit standard regarding the output values. During a risk analysis the relationship between the medical benefit and the risk is evaluated and as a result, the product is classified in specific risk-categories. According to the risk, there is Class I, IIa, IIb and 3. Hidrex is classified in class IIa gem. MPG bzw. 93/42/EEC
The maximal output values of each machine are determined in the manual and also on the back side of the machine itself. Hidrex GmbH orients itself on the "Schutzkleinspannung" (SELV: safety extra-low voltage). By keeping these limits, the machine can be classified in Class IIa (this is the lowest risklevel for active medical products). The limit output values for class IIa according to SELV are 60V and 35mA.

________________________
The voltage dosage is set at about say 35, the actual voltage output measured with an oscilloscope is around 17V, what is the actual relationship of the value shown on the screen with the actual voltage output measured? Or, which value is the actual output of the machine?

The actual output (effective voltage which the user is getting) is the one measured with the oscilloscope.
In this case, the machine is probably set up to a pulse width of 50% (later it was confirmed, that the machine was set up to a pulse width of 50%). If you would choose the 100% pulse width (direct current), then the oscilloscope would measure the complete 35V. An oscilloscope always measures the average value of the pulse amplitude:
35V at 100% = 35V
35V at 90% = 31,5V
35V at 80% = 28V
35V at 70% = 24,5V
35V at 60% = 21V
35V at 50% = 17,5V

Again, the effective voltage which the user is recieving is the one measured with the oscilloscope. But remember, you have another 2 values: the body resistance and the mA. They also have an influence on the output current.

And also always remember: as long as it works, the person treating actually does not care how much current output he/she is getting!! Wink

________________________
Another question from hospital staff:
The dosage setting value varies too much for different patients. What is the recommended Volt/A value for average users?


Every person has a different setting. Everyone reacts different to current so this is why it is not possible to recommend a certain voltage for everyone. For example on hands, person A can tolerate around 30V. But person B for instance can easily tolerate 43V. So what happens if we recommend everyone to use person B's setting of 43V? Then people like person A would get hurt, because for them, 43V is too much. This is why the machine has to be set up individually for each and every patient. Everyone has to find out what is the maximal voltage he or she can tolerate on the different pulse width settings, without feeling pain or uncomfortableness.

________________________
And another one:
For each different patient, we have to adjust the dosage settings to meet their different feeling individually. Is it possible to measure the patient hands resistance value first, then to set up the max Voltage value for each?


I would recommend to start with each patient on a low level, and then work my way up. For example, start with hands: 60% pulse width and 30V. If the patient can tolerate it well, then the next time, go up to 35V. Or go up to 70% pulse width and 35V. This is an issue you will have to deal with! I can understand that it is time consuming, but unfortunately there is no other way. Look at it as an advantage, of being able to offer your patients a completely individual type of treatment against hyperhidrosis. I don't think that measuring the resistance is going to make a difference, because even if you have the resistance, which by the way is in average only about 2kOhm, everyone reacts and percieves the current differently. The machines maximum settings were measured with a resistance of 2kOHm, this would theoretically mean, that everyone could tolerate the maximum voltage of 60V and 30mA, but, as we know, this is not the case. It can be that someone with 2 kOhm body (or hand) resistance only can stand 35V (even if the machine could go up to 60V). So you see, there is no other way than testing each patient individually.
_________________
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